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The bounty of chiropractic excuses - (Read 5,408 Times)
 
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Copernicus DC
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Jun 7, 2004 at 8:07am QuotePost Options Post by Copernicus DC on Jun 7, 2004 at 8:07am
I used to think that I had heard every chiropractic excuse:

-We don't have the money to fund research to prove ourselves (while ignoring the research disproving current methods)

-Every profession has a few bad apples (but name one that teaches fraud in its classrooms).

I hate excuses because they serve as a diversion tactic which exists to prevent people from fixing the source of the problem- namely the quackery and corruption in chiropractic by using an excuse. Of course this serves the institutions which can continue to rip off patients and students.

Chirobase has an interesting article about chiropractic responses to criticism here:

http://www.chirobase.org/11Responses/response.html


However, it appears that creative chiropractic marketing geniuses are creating new excuses as time goes on. If you happen to run across a new and interesting excuse please copy it and post it to this section so we can have a chuckle.

Welcome to the chiropractic mind...
Last Edit: Nov 5, 2004 at 1:10pm by Copernicus DC
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A J Botnick DC

"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum

DaveinDallas81
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Jun 9, 2004 at 3:32am QuotePost Options Post by DaveinDallas81 on Jun 9, 2004 at 3:32am
Back when...

>Moved to

chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi?board=excuses&action=display&n=1&thread=2375&start=0]
Last Edit: Jun 9, 2004 at 7:22am by Copernicus DC
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Jun 14, 2004 at 12:21pm QuotePost Options Post by Randall Lord, D.C. on Jun 14, 2004 at 12:21pm
Health conditions can do one of three things: get better, stay the same or get worse. Usually a DC takes credit if gets better - chiropractic works. If it stays the same this is proof that a lifelong condition needs more care to fix it - don't quit. If it gets worse then one of two excuses are delivered: 1. You are not doing the __ (exercises, vitimins, frequency of visits) I told you to do - Its the patinets fault, chiropractic works if you'd work with me.
2. You are retracing, your nervous system is reexperiencing a past illness as you are getting better - chiropractic works.
No matter what happens - chiropractic works.
If "the power that made the body can heal the body" were true then why do people get sick and need doctors? That sounds like proof of unintillegent design to me.
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Jun 14, 2004 at 12:27pm QuotePost Options Post by Copernicus DC on Jun 14, 2004 at 12:27pm
I'd like to add another possibility, blaming the chiropractor. There is an often heard saying by guru Clarence Gonstead that blamed the chiropractor for not having enough skill if patients didn't improve.

http://www.worldchiropracticalliance.org/tcj/2003/sep/sep2003baker.htm



Dr. Clarence Gonstead once said, "Remember that chiropractic always works. When it does not seem to, examine your applications, but do not question the principle." Do you think for one moment Dr. Gonstead simply re-acted to his world or do you think he was a man of action? Let's think about this one D.C. in Mt. Horeb, Wisconsin with a huge clinic, hotel and private airstrip for his patients -- all in a town of fewer than 2,000 people.
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A J Botnick DC

"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum

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Jun 14, 2004 at 1:01pm QuotePost Options Post by Randall Lord, D.C. on Jun 14, 2004 at 1:01pm
Good point and again the idea is that chiropractic always works, maybe even in spite of the doctor.
If "the power that made the body can heal the body" were true then why do people get sick and need doctors? That sounds like proof of unintillegent design to me.
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May 15, 2005 at 1:10pm QuotePost Options Post by donaldb on May 15, 2005 at 1:10pm
Only a silly person would believe that any treatment is the cure for everybody. People aren't stupid, if something doesn't help them they won't spend their money. The biggest proof that chiropractic works is that it is still around despite all the people who are so interested in running it down. It's a shame when people give up on a treatment too soon also and don't give it a chance. When people I know start going to a chiropractor I tell them to give it half a dozen visits and see how they feel.
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May 15, 2005 at 1:29pm QuotePost Options Post by Copernicus DC on May 15, 2005 at 1:29pm
>The biggest proof that chiropractic works is that it is still around despite all the people who are so interested in running it down.

Actually that doesn't prove anything at all. There are plenty of old practices that don't work but people still believe in them. Chiropractic is seductive because people like the pain relief and then assume that the belief system is true.

Unfortunately, it is a false assumption that leads to inferior treatment because chiropractors usually don't treat the real underlying causes of diseases.
Last Edit: May 15, 2005 at 1:30pm by Copernicus DC
"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A J Botnick DC

"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum

Randall Lord, D.C.
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May 15, 2005 at 1:37pm QuotePost Options Post by Randall Lord, D.C. on May 15, 2005 at 1:37pm
donaldb said:
Only a silly person would believe that any treatment is the cure for everybody. People aren't stupid, if something doesn't help them they won't spend their money. The biggest proof that chiropractic works is that it is still around despite all the people who are so interested in running it down. It's a shame when people give up on a treatment too soon also and don't give it a chance. When people I know start going to a chiropractor I tell them to give it half a dozen visits and see how they feel.



donaldb,
If you believe the above statement then you think the founders (DD and BJ) were silly. It's interesting that they have never been refuted by the profession, instead they are still reveared.

As far as people being stupid I'll have to agree. People are not stupid but they are easily fooled and misinformed. Many people still believe in demons, magic, ghosts, homeopathy, etc.
Last Edit: May 15, 2005 at 1:39pm by Randall Lord, D.C.
If "the power that made the body can heal the body" were true then why do people get sick and need doctors? That sounds like proof of unintillegent design to me.
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May 15, 2005 at 2:04pm QuotePost Options Post by Guest on May 15, 2005 at 2:04pm
Hi Donald,
I wish to point out something to you: you are assuming that chiropractic = manipulation. One is a so-called profession, the other is a tool. Please don't assume that they are completely synonymous terms. The chiros would love you to continue to think that chiropractic IS the same as manipulation. Truth is, PTs use the tool of manipulation, D.O.s use it, some M.D.s use it, and most chiropractors. They are different words that represent different things. So don't say, "chiropractic helps." A more accurate, true thing to say is, "Manipulation helps."
Xena,
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May 10, 2006 at 11:50am QuotePost Options Post by ramrod on May 10, 2006 at 11:50am
Nothing helps all the people all the time. Chiropractic manipulation (and rehab) works for some conditions for some people. Anyone who holds it up as the ultimate answer to all health problems is suspect.
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May 10, 2006 at 6:41pm QuotePost Options Post by lawman on May 10, 2006 at 6:41pm
ramrod,
after listening to a number of pro-chiro speakers, reading pro-chiro forums, and hearing chiros in person, isn't that exactly what chiropractors do? claim that chiropractic treatments do in fact provide the ultimate answer to all health problems.... It seems to me that is exaclty what old man Palmer was doing 85 years ago and that is exacly what FACE, Cleveland chiropractric college ( as well as the other US schools of chiropractic) and my local DC do today, claim they have a treatment that allows the body to heal itself of everything from HIV to a cervical injury?
You have identified one thing correctly, the chiropractic discipline is in fact suspect for this very reason.
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May 10, 2006 at 10:16pm QuotePost Options Post by batmandc on May 10, 2006 at 10:16pm
lawman:

The answer to your question is no, that is not exactly what chiropractors do. That is what SOME chiropractors claim to do. Any DC who claims to cure HIV or cancer, should be sent to the state board for violation of their respective practice act.

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May 11, 2006 at 1:02pm QuotePost Options Post by thunder12000 on May 11, 2006 at 1:02pm
Batmandc, I cant believe what I am reading, where have you been, under a rock? Pick any DC's office, choose any of the reading material, it offers, and just read, it is litered with these claims, just look at all of the posters on the walls! Come on, you cant be serious! The claims are everywhere, we treat and cure ADD, ear infections, menstral cramps, they can even "help" you get pregnant! What a load of crap! Just look at any phone book ad, newspaper ad, and yes even on your local TV ad. Look, I dont mean to target you, I dont, but when you say such claims are suspect, then you are speaking of the majority of Chiropractic claims and teachings. You cant have it both ways, and unless you have been under that rock, or even in Chiro school, in which they ONLY show their view, than I am sorry, open your eyes. Where do you think all of the jokes come from, comedy tv shows, and the word mumbo jumbo came from, because it has been out there for many years! And when it does come to the state board, What do they do slap them on the hand? Thats not much of a punishment!
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May 11, 2006 at 2:45pm QuotePost Options Post by lawman on May 11, 2006 at 2:45pm
batmandc,
I have been correctly accused of over-generalizing (is that a word?) in the past. I do not think I did so on this post. I have read the debates between the self appointed leaders of the chiro field, moderated by David Suskind (spelling? forgive me if I have his name misspelled) and Dr Barrett et al., I have tried to figure out what chiroprators are saying when they say they do not treat any specific condition or ailment but the body as a whole, so it can heal itself , and I have looked at the published materials in their periodicals and the literature handed out in their offices, as well as heard individual DC's speak in public, I have reveiwed the course materials at one college of chiropractic, Cleveland chiropractic- KC campus. AND .....
I stand by my post.
As a discipline chiropractic does in fact assert that there is no condition, no ailment and no symptom that will not benefit from regular chiropractic treatment. I used generalized language to make a point and to use fewer words, but the idea , the message they(DC's) convey is ( I claim),accuratly expressed in my post. I ,as well as any number of more experienced observers, can cite you to this empirical evidence.
What do you believe chiropractic , as a discipline, claims as its' reason for exsistence? where do you think I have let the wheels come off the wagon in my analysis? how many are "SOME" ? the minority, the majority? I maintain that the discipline of chiropractic claims that it can treat every human malady. Show me where I am wrong?
I am on this forum to learn, and to test my personal belief's and observations for soundness by critical reveiw of others. Here is your chance to correct me. I await your reply.
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May 11, 2006 at 5:12pm QuotePost Options Post by batmandc on May 11, 2006 at 5:12pm
thunder:

Please don't take this personally, but being in the profession for over 15 years, I might have a little more insight on the pulse of the chiropractic profession that someone who gets their information from perusing the yellow pages, watching TV commercials and posting on a chiropractic website.

I never said that there are not a significant amount of DC's who espouse the views you described, but having met many, many chiropractors, I know there are many who what I would call mainstream practitioners. THey treat neck and back pain and leave the medical conditions to the medical profession, if you know what I am saying. They do not treat ADD, diabetes, HIV etc. The last time I checked my office walls, I never saw any posters mentioning the things you describe.

There is no mandate to following the teachings of one DD palmer.

batmandc
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May 11, 2006 at 5:58pm QuotePost Options Post by drj on May 11, 2006 at 5:58pm
Ditto batmandc. Never saw any of those pamphlets or posters in my office either.
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May 11, 2006 at 9:30pm QuotePost Options Post by batmandc on May 11, 2006 at 9:30pm
Lawman:

I appreciate your response. First, you read an interview from the David Suskind show, when was that by the way, in the 1970's or 1980's. However, you did get that information from Chirobase, which you might be surprised to hear I think is a fair site for criticism of my profession.

The double speak you write about is troubling, that some will say that they are not treating any specific ailment, but treating subluxations and that will in turn, help heal any number of medical conditions. That would be the traditional wing of the profession, if you are asking for a specific number, I cannot provide you that information. Needless to say, that wing of the profession often speaks the loudest. Trying to say that you visited FACE and now you have understanding of what the profession is an a whole is rather funny.

I take it you have not looked at the Mercy Guidelines or the new best practice guidelines for low back pain. Treatment for ADD and HIV are not approved in Mercy. Look at the largest chiropractic managed care organization, ASH. DC' s must agree to only treat MS conditions to participate. Their membership is well into the 10-20,000. So, while I appreciate your look at Cleveland Chiro School, FACE and reading a 30 year old interview, but there is a large contingent of this profession that does not subscribe to your notion of this profession.. Granted, there remains a large amount who do and I do acknowledge that; this is an issue. But your definition of chiropractic is not universally accepted.

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May 12, 2006 at 2:35am QuotePost Options Post by Guest on May 12, 2006 at 2:35am
batmandc:
That would be the traditional wing of the profession, if you are asking for a specific number, I cannot provide you that information. Needless to say, that wing of the profession often speaks the loudest. Trying to say that you visited FACE and now you have understanding of what the profession is an a whole is rather funny.

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/21/12/19.html
New Study Finds Unity in Chiropractic (Dynamic Chiropractic June 2, 2003):
The overwhelming majority of the 687 respondents (88.1%) said they want to retain the term "vertebral subluxation complex." They oppose having the adjustment "limited to musculoskeletal conditions" (89.8%). When asked to estimate the percent of visceral ailments in which the subluxation is a "significant contributing factor," the mean response was 62.1%. When questioned about the percent of pharmaceutical prescriptions that are "clinically beneficial," the mean response was 39.8%.

See also:

http://www.acatoday.com/pdf/PDR/ChiropracticTechniques.pdf

Batman, I just can't see how you can make the case that Chiropractic is anything like an evidence based profession. Exceptions yes, but those exceptions are in a tiny minority. Moreover, the more EB they become, the more they deviate away from anything uniquely chiropractic.
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 10:19am by TEO
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May 12, 2006 at 9:02am QuotePost Options Post by drj on May 12, 2006 at 9:02am
When questioned about the percent of pharmaceutical prescriptions that are "clinically beneficial," the mean response was 39.8%.
What does this mean?
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May 12, 2006 at 10:48am QuotePost Options Post by TEO on May 12, 2006 at 10:48am
New Study Finds Unity in Chiropractic (Dynamic Chiropractic June 2, 2003):
The overwhelming majority of the 687 respondents (88.1%) said they want to retain the term "vertebral subluxation complex." They oppose having the adjustment "limited to musculoskeletal conditions" (89.8%). When asked to estimate the percent of visceral ailments in which the subluxation is a "significant contributing factor," the mean response was 62.1%. When questioned about the percent of pharmaceutical prescriptions that are "clinically beneficial," the mean response was 39.8%.
drj: When questioned about the percent of pharmaceutical prescriptions that are "clinically beneficial," the mean response was 39.8%. What does this mean?

It means that more than twice that percentage (89.8%) of 687 chiropractic respondents in this study believed that "Thuh" Adjustment could effectively treat most any illness. Further, this same roomful of meatballs believed that the Chiropractic Subluxations they treat (with "Thuh" Adjustment) figured prominently in "visceral ailments," which, presumably, is the rationale they use for treating heart and liver disease, let's say.

Now you're in a position to think about the implications for how and where pharmacotherapy fits into the chiropractic picture with regard to managing illness and disease. About 40% believe that drugs can be useful as compared to about 90% who prefer to diagnose Vertebral Subluxation and treat with "Thuh" Adjustment. On this, chiropractors tend to agree -- at least, according to the article in Dynamic Chiropractic and the study to which it refers.

Is that what you meant by your question, "What does this mean"?

~TEO.

John Badanes, DC, PharmD
LCCW '84, UCSF '97

© 2006
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 12:18pm by TEO
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drj
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May 12, 2006 at 5:04pm QuotePost Options Post by drj on May 12, 2006 at 5:04pm
Thanks TEO. At first Icouldn't believe that only 40% of chiros believe that drugs could be useful. I mean, could that many be that ignorant? Certianly my close friends/colleagues in the profession didn't feel that way, nor did they have much faith in the visceral connection. But they, apparently, are not in the majority.

As an aside, I took a patient out of the OR last night after open heart surgery. Thought it would be a typical night, let the anesthesia wear off and extubate him when appropriate. He came out of the OR with only a Ringers drip, for fluid replacement and an insulin drip to manage his Blood sugar. To make a long story short, by this morning, in order to keep this man alive, I had put him on vasopressin, dopamine, dobutamine, levophed, primacor and propofol drips. Also gave him lots of fluids and blood products. Gave him Nimbex for short term paralysis and versed along with morphine for pain relief. I suspect the man will be extubated before I return tonight and be on his way to recovering. Incredible.

Soooo, many chiros don't think medications are helpful? Knuckleheads.

And yes, I was totally exhausted. A harder day of work than any in my twenty years as a chiro.
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May 12, 2006 at 5:11pm QuotePost Options Post by healthnut on May 12, 2006 at 5:11pm
No chiro doc ever said that using medication on a post-op patient was bad. Where are you getting your information?
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May 12, 2006 at 5:17pm QuotePost Options Post by drj on May 12, 2006 at 5:17pm
Thats funny, it's quite common for chiros to claim that many surgeries (and I'm not referring to back and neck surgeries) are unnecessary if only the patient receives proper chiro care.

I was only telling of my experience from last night, noting the usefulness of medications. This was a heart patient, not a trauma patient. Many chiros believe heart ailments can be helped with an adjustment. Do you?


Which medications could be better substituted for with a chiro adjustment? Any examples?
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 5:27pm by drj
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May 12, 2006 at 6:11pm QuotePost Options Post by healthnut on May 12, 2006 at 6:11pm
If a person has done all of the wrong things their whole life; (smoking, terrible diet, sedintary lifestyle), and they require heart surgery, there is nothing better than visiting a good cardiologist. I'm talking about lifelong prevention. This is what I mean. People get the wrong idea about chiropractic. It's a way of life besides being a health care profession. Educating patients is priority! We don't all have to be physicians to tell our patients that smoking is bad. But people continue to puff away, don't they? Prevention is the key. If your patient would have taken the right steps while he/she were younger, they wouldn't have had the surgery. There is a time and place for every type of doctor in the world; chiropractic included.
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May 12, 2006 at 6:29pm QuotePost Options Post by Guest on May 12, 2006 at 6:29pm
If anyone has that reference noting that MDs live longer than chiropractors, now would be a good time to post it.
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May 12, 2006 at 6:33pm QuotePost Options Post by drj on May 12, 2006 at 6:33pm
"If your patient would have taken the right steps while he/she were younger, they wouldn't have had the surgery." Don't be so presumptuous. The patient was 52 years old, never smoked a day in his life and worked out 3 times per week.

I've asked you a few questions, maybe you could address them.
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 6:34pm by drj
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May 12, 2006 at 7:29pm QuotePost Options Post by healthnut on May 12, 2006 at 7:29pm
Really? What did your patient's history reveal? How many times a week did they exercise? How was their diet? Fact of the matter is if everybody listened to chiropractors, like they should, you would be out of a job. M.D's are great in an emergency situation!! But, as far as "health" is concerned, you have no defense.
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May 12, 2006 at 7:54pm QuotePost Options Post by Guest on May 12, 2006 at 7:54pm
Healthnut,

What do you have to say to the many millions of Americans who, due to educational and socioeconomic reasons will never be able to understand or appreciate what it really means to take good care of their health. What do you say to those people who can't afford to live in an idealized health conscious bubble? Better luck next time?
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 8:03pm by Guest
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May 12, 2006 at 8:02pm QuotePost Options Post by michaelemery on May 12, 2006 at 8:02pm
Fact of the matter is if everybody listened to chiropractors, like they should, you would be out of a job.

No, it would mean everyone would be convinced of the fallacy known as vertebral subluxations. Pharmacologic and vaccination interventions would be virtually irradicated and the subsequent repercussions on society would be far from ideal.
M.D's are great in an emergency situation!! But, as far as "health" is concerned, you have no defense.

No defense, hmmm. Phenomenal deduction. I am in awe right now. Of how this is the most poorly substantiated argument I can recall on this forum.
Last Edit: May 12, 2006 at 8:14pm by michaelemery
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May 12, 2006 at 8:04pm QuotePost Options Post by michaelemery on May 12, 2006 at 8:04pm
What do you say to those people who can't afford to live in an idealized health conscious bubble?

(Health) nut would say they are living with spinal malalignments. To ignore the utility of drugs and surgery as well with 'typical chiropractic dismissiveness' shows, (health)nut why you would never suffice as a primary care physician. Research does not matter, unless you are talking about validating adjustments. And if those studies are contrary, then rely on testimonials. But to state medical doctors have 'no defense' in the grand shadows of the chiropractic banner for patient health and well-being merely shows just how non-objective you are and susceptible to brainwashing.
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"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A J Botnick DC

"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum

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