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Proboards nukes old Chirotalk site without justification - (Read 16,329 Times)
 
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 17th, 2014 at 06:23 pm

Hello Proboards chirotalk members,

As everyone knows, our old discussion forum host was a free host. For many years we were able to co-exist peacefully with them. However, last week I was contacted by a practice management group, Advanced Management For Chiropractors in Chatanooga, TN, who requested that I remove a discussion thread critical of them. They claimed the thread was defamatory but after reviewing it I felt they didn't have a strong case. We discussed the matter and AMC suggested that I take $5,000 to delete the thread. I refused this and they said that they would pursue other means to get them removed.

Yesterday, September 16, 2014 proboards permanently took the entire Chirotalk forum offline. I was never contacted and no reason was given for the termination except that they wanted to.

They didn't state that any violations occurred, just that they didn't want to host it anymore. This was done with no notice and I was never given any opportunity to respond to questions. Regardless, I sent them an email about AMC which wasn't addressed.

It has been suggested that AMC may have bribed them to take the site down.

For this reason I am listing Proboards as a chiropractic villain. Do not use them to host your discussion forum.

Quote:
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2014 at 4:11 PM
From: "ProBoards Abuse Department" <abuse@proboards.com>
To: "Allen Botnick" <ajbotnick@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Chirotalk website offline
Hello,

ProBoards has exercised its right to terminate service to this forum per section 25(a) of the Terms of Service. For more information about ProBoards' policies, please see our Terms of Service and Community Guidelines:

Terms of Service: http://www.proboards.com/tos
Community Guidelines: http://www.proboards.com/community_guidelines

We are sorry, but we are not able to provide any further information.


Here is section 25(a):

Quote:
25. TERMINATION

(a) By ProBoards

WITHOUT LIMITING ANY OTHER PROVISION OF THIS AGREEMENT, PROBOARDS RESERVES THE RIGHT TO, IN PROBOARDS' SOLE DISCRETION AND WITHOUT NOTICE OR LIABILITY, DENY USE OF THE WEBSITE AND/OR SERVICES TO ANY PERSON FOR ANY REASON OR FOR NO REASON AT ALL, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION FOR ANY BREACH OR SUSPECTED BREACH OF ANY REPRESENTATION, WARRANTY OR COVENANT CONTAINED IN THIS AGREEMENT, OR OF ANY APPLICABLE LAW OR REGULATION.


There are two sources where we can locate posts on the previous board: the internet wayback machine and google caches. Both complement each other. The wayback machine is excellent for finding thread titles but limited on content. Google is great for content but poor for organization.

Not only did proboards prevent us from emailing members a new address but they locked down a support discussion thread and removed reference to the new board here.

I have filed complaints against Proboards with Rip Off report and the Better Business Bureau.

http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Proboards-Inc/internet/Proboards-Inc-Destroyed-nine-year-old-discussion-forum-with-no-notice-and-hearing-Inter-1177592

When I was shopping for a new host for Chirotalk I was very surprised that several of the hosts actually had that sort of a termination clause. I chose Hyperboards because they have fair terms of service and don't do that. I am hoping that their upgrade will improve the look and features of the forum.

I am also going to start archiving the threads so this doesn't happen again.

I have notified AMC that their threads are safe and sound and are reposted in their own little section.

That will teach them.


« Last Edited by Admin Sep 19th, 2014 at 05:34 pm »
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FAIRCHIRO
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 23rd, 2014 at 09:37 pm

I previously laughed at your conspiracy theories, but maybe someone is out to get you. This seems very unfair. I wonder if this type of attempted bribery by AMC is legal. I guess you should have taken the $5,000.00. If what you are saying is true, this AMC group is very slimy and we should encourage anyone who has had a bad experience with them to post on this forum. Also Proboards should not have caved so easily. Unless they can show that something is factually incorrect, people are entitled to their opinions and AMC could have posted on the Proboards forum and rebutted any negative claims. Also Proboards should have some system in place to port all that information over to this forum. Well, I guess all we can do is start over and try to make this the best chiropractic discussion forum ever. I am, like most Americans, a strong believer in freedom of expression and I hate to see your free speech trampled on. I would agree with them if they can show that you allowed factually incorrect information to be posted, but I don't believe they ever did that. You even allowed one chiropractor to repeatedly post how great AMC was and you could have deleted his posts, but you didn't. This whole thing has made me sad and angry. I am not sure if I am more sad or more angry. They removed all my brilliant posts that I spent so long creating. All that valuable information to better serve mankind. But we won't be stopped and will continue to encourage skeptical thinking. For a life not examined, is a life not worth living and a profession not examined, is a profession not worth practicing.

« Last Edited by FAIRCHIRO Jan 20th, 2015 at 08:09 pm »
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 24th, 2014 at 06:22 am

Fairchiro,

I'm sorry you lost all content. I have been in contact with Proboards (who denies having been bribed to take the forum down) and they refuse to provide PDF copies of the discussion threads so we can repost them. If you read my Rip Off report complaint, you'll see a reply where they actually did this to many other discussion boards so its common. I just wasn't aware they they had the leeway and history to do this. Remember, we had that board up for nine years with not even one warning from them.

I was able to locate about 70 threads to repost here, many which are important ones. You probably can locate many of your posts by searching google and seeing if the content has a cache, just click the down arrow next to the results. That's how I recovered the other content.

Discussion boards aren't designed to be permanent archives, that's what books are for. I'm limited because of my disability (pain and fatigue) but our staff should have done more by collecting the best threads/posts in an archive form much like Student Doctor Network did with their books.

The bottom line is that we helped raise the consciousness about chiropractic scams so that medical professionals could start being more aggressive against them. After the Wilk trial loss, the medical profession was very reluctant to counter chiropractic propaganda. Because of Chirotalk and other sources, consciousness was raised that people were still being harmed and this is motivating them to action. This is a big reason why chiropractic is in decline. Also, we helped prevent students from becoming chiropractors where they would have a 25% to 50% chance of having their careers destroyed through failure. And finally, we helped many DCs recover from negative chiropractic experiences and find new careers. So be proud of what you did.

This new board doesn't state that it can take down content for no reason so we shouldn't have a recurrence of this again. However, it is a free host so we should still archive content somehow.

« Last Edited by Admin Sep 24th, 2014 at 06:24 am »
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"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 26th, 2014 at 02:31 pm

It will be rebuilt. You can't hide the truth.
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FAIRCHIRO
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 26th, 2014 at 03:00 pm

Sep 26th, 2014 at 02:31 pm, outofchiropractic wrote:
It will be rebuilt. You can't hide the truth.



A skeptical chiropractic site benefits society. It allows the general public and chiropractors to get a different view of chiropractic- one that the chiropractic profession doesn't want people to see.
Chiropractors compare themselves to David fighting Goliath when they battle medicine but now they are the Giant trying to squash a David(Allen). But, like David, Allen is a man with a mission and won't be stopped so easily!
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 27th, 2014 at 11:35 am

I think Chirotalk accomplished its goals:
1. To show people that chiropractic problems are systemic.
2. To motivate MDs to take a stand.
3. To burst the bubble that chiropractic techniques are science based.
4. To show that accreditation of psuedoscience is meaningless.
5. To help honest, intelligent DCs and students find meaningful work outside the field.

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"The real problem (isn't chiropractic but rather) society's tolerance of disproven theory, unsubstantiated claims and unethical professions." -A J Botnick DC

"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum
FAIRCHIRO
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 28th, 2014 at 02:14 pm

Sep 27th, 2014 at 11:35 am, Admin wrote:
I think Chirotalk accomplished its goals:
1. To show people that chiropractic problems are systemic.
2. To motivate MDs to take a stand.
3. To burst the bubble that chiropractic techniques are science based.
4. To show that accreditation of psuedoscience is meaningless.
5. To help honest, intelligent DCs and students find meaningful work outside the field.


These are laudable goals/accomplishments. To briefly address your points.
1) The problems are systemic because the chiropractic boards and colleges are not interested in rocking the boat.
2) M.Ds are afraid to criticize alternative medicine. It seems to be politically incorrect to criticize alternative medicine, but one should always speak the truth.
3) There is so much pseudoscience and quackery in chiropractic that it boggles the mind and it is near impossible for a non-expert like myself to debate every quack study or pseudoscientific explanation.
4) We have discussed many fascinating career paths for chiropractors who are interested in changing professions-such as teaching, nursing, medicine, physical therapy, and intraoperative neuromonitoring.


They took down the site but they can't take away our knowledge. We can keep on giving people the gift of knowledge so that they can make informed decisions. Before the advent of the internet it was virtually impossible to get this kind of information regarding the chiropractic profession.

« Last Edited by FAIRCHIRO Sep 28th, 2014 at 05:51 pm »
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Post Icon Posted: Sep 28th, 2014 at 07:15 pm

[quote author=7 post_id=87 date=1411931670]Sep 27th, 2014 at 11:35 am, Admin wrote:

2) M.Ds are afraid to criticize alternative medicine. It seems to be politically incorrect to criticize alternative medicine, but one should always speak the truth.


They were because of the Wilk trial loss but this has changed. Look at all the skeptics associations.

>They took down the site but they can't take away our knowledge. We can keep on giving people the gift of knowledge so that they can make informed decisions. Before the advent of the internet it was virtually impossible to get this kind of information regarding the chiropractic profession.

Exactly. We didn't lose anything. That's the power of knowledge.
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"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum
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Post Icon Posted: Jan 16th, 2015 at 02:04 pm

This forum is dead. Where is everyone?

« Last Edited by evidencebased Jan 16th, 2015 at 05:22 pm »
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Post Icon Posted: Jan 17th, 2015 at 05:57 pm

I am here! Can't you see me?

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Post Icon Posted: Jan 17th, 2015 at 06:01 pm

In all seriousness, I am saddened by the lack of participation and apathy in the chiropractic profession. Thinking outside the chiropractic box is a good thing for all chiropractors to do. They should make this forum and Chirobase required reading for chiropractic students.
I guess it takes a while to build up membership. The last forum was taken down and now it may take years before this one builds up a good number of members. Sometimes I think about just coming on and making some type of incendiary remark to get a discussion going, but there don't appear to be enough trolls or regular members for that to work. Perhaps Allan could advertise somewhere?

« Last Edited by FAIRCHIRO Jan 19th, 2015 at 12:17 pm »
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Post Icon Posted: Jan 17th, 2015 at 08:33 pm

Chiropractic apathy alive and well!!!!
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Post Icon Posted: Jan 21st, 2015 at 02:31 pm

I was hoping that exDCs were just being busy with more constructive things than beating the dead horse of why chiropractic sucks.
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"There's a sucker born every minute" -PT Barnum
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Post Icon Posted: Feb 13th, 2016 at 09:31 am

Having dealt with Proboard myself, I doubt they were bribed. It's much more likely that just received a couple of emails complaining about your forum. That's why political boards never ever last on proboards. If 2-3 people complain to them about your forum, they just delete it.
No joke.

The only exception is if it's super popular. That happened to a friend's beauty forum. There was some drama with a mod and her friends and they did suspend the account just based on a few emails. But they went ahead and restored it, since she was a premium member for more than 5 years and had north of 300,000 page views/month.
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Post Icon Posted: Feb 13th, 2016 at 02:01 pm

It is sad that Probards shut down this forum because of a complaint from a chiropractic practice management organization. Proboards should value free speech, which is our most important constitutional right. The practice management group that complained to Proboards could have directly responded to any criticism on this forum. I have an open mind. If they presented a good response, I might have sided with the practice management group. But them acting in this cowardly way makes me believe that they had something to cover up. I find it impressive that Allan choose me as a moderator on this board even though I may sometimes espouse pro-chiropractic views. It shows that this forum isn't just biased propaganda. The chiropractic profession has multiple serious problems which are covered up by the chiropractic establishment. This site allows otherwise unavailable information to be disseminated.

« Last Edited by FAIRCHIRO Feb 13th, 2016 at 02:03 pm »
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